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The blind leading the blind — ADvindicate

Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:07:48 GMT

glenhansen
Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:21:27 GMT

Correction: Some SDAs may want to hear the story because their minds run....

Doug Yowell
Thu, 09 Oct 2014 13:49:13 GMT

I remain unconvinced that Wayne's “ministry” is anything more than an extension of the same personality disorders which led him into and kept him in sin for many years. I'm not denying that God delivered him. Being healed or delivered doesn't mean that someone is 100% whole again..." You just openly admitted that you didn't think that Christ had healed Wayne, or forgiven him of his former life. What do you think God delivered him from? You continue to question his experience with Christ instead of rejoicing with him and encouraging him, like Jesus did to the demoniacs, to share his story with others. You don't even realize how skeptical and bitter you portray yourself as. In fact, you echo the sympathetic notion that the gay community has so often employed against Christ's saving power that it is impossible for any true homosexual to ever change. "I'd much rather listen to/ read Des, D.A. Carson, Cranfield, Luther or just about anyone who said/says NO to soul destroying vice." But not Wayne who plainly preaches the same thing?? And what kind of testimony to Christ is that? Reading theological works is not the same as KNOWING Christ for one's self. It's no substitute for taking care of your own sinful practices no matter how insignificant one thinks them to compare with others.

glenhansen
Thu, 09 Oct 2014 14:26:15 GMT

Doug, I spent many years deeply involved with the gay community, trying to help them when faced with death and eternal damnation. I know that most do not change and would rather spit in your eye than accept Christ. Their attitude was, "Hey, I chose to live like this and I'm going to die like this." I was shocked at how unruffled they appeared at the gates of eternity without a Savior. I don't believe that becoming a Christian makes a person sinless or involves an entire, immediate restoration to the condition of Jesus or Adam before his fall. Although I didn't spend decades of my life as a sodomite, I was involved in some horrible stuff before Jesus delivered me. If I was ever completely whole, it didn't last long. Even now, I sometimes feel like Sebastian, shot full of holes, with my inner man spilling out of my body. In the case of people delivered from the type of degradation in which Wayne participated for decades, there's a long journey ahead, one fraught with difficulty. He's probably going to make some serious missteps along the way and have to do some serious soul searching from time to time. That's fine. It's the Christian life. The demoniacs who were healed by Christ certainly had a story to tell, as did Nicodemus, Lazarus, and many others. It's important that those stories be told in the proper context to people who can appreciate what they have to say. Homosexuality is still a forbidden topic, more or less, where I live. Even mention of the subject is met with disgust and revulsion, if not laughter and guffaws. Many are openly shocked at the very idea. Recitation of Wayne's story would serve to normalize homosexuality, as if people who have participated in it should be affirmed, rather than shunned, by society. I don't consider Wayne's message comparable to the Christ centered preaching of Des, the justification theology of Luther, or the exegesis of Cranfield. If you do, lap it up. It's just another evidence of how spiritually bankrupt Adventism has become.

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Thu, 09 Oct 2014 19:27:02 GMT

The convalescent period where Ebola may be an STD is reported here and may be up to 90 days: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/10/08/sex-in-a-time-of-ebola/ Wayne's ministry is only for those seeking help; not the gays Glen mentioned who choose to live or visit gay ghettos and feel no need to change. Wayne is calling gays who want to gain victory over the practice (not orientation) of homosexuality through a prayer and Bible study relationship with Jesus. It is my belief that after years of celibacy, old habits and thought patterns long suppressed will wither and, in some, heterosexual impulses may emerge.

glenhansen
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 01:18:24 GMT

Sure, Elizabeth, you throw enough spaghetti on a wall, some of it is bound to stick. Initially, when trying to stigmatize the gay community with Ebola, you were concerned about the 21 day post infection/ pre symptomatic period. This is about the post symptomatic period i.e., the other end of the spectrum. I'm sure you will be excited when terms such as "sodomy," " anal penetration," and homosexuality appear in an article about Ebola. Lot of conjecture in that article; little, if any, proof.

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:40:36 GMT

Glen, We are still very early in this possible pestilence. We are dealing with evidence, not *"proof"*. What is *"proof"* for Glen? Do you feel it has been proved that: 1. anal sex is a much higher risk sexual act than vaginal sex, 2. and much much higher risk sexual act than oral sex? The path of HIV came into humankind from humans choosing to eat unclean animals. From there it found a path through anal sex which is most commonly practiced by male homosexuals (not females). The longer the time Ebola can be transmitted by people who feel well enough to have sex, the more likely Ebola will follow the same path. This is very plain evidence Glen. Let us pray that a vaccine or an effective and safe antiviral drug will stop this plague.

glenhansen
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:53:35 GMT

Not sure what your point is Elizabeth, aside from mentioning some of your favorite topics. Mad cow disease infected humans consequent to eating "clean" meats. Not sure if there was any sodomy or anal contact of any kind in that process, perhaps some masturbation? It is early and people are still uncertain about Ebola transmission. Let's see if Mr. Duncan's fiancée was infected by close contact of an intimate nature. We know he was Ebola positive and asymptomatic when he connected with her but the extent and nature of that contact is not public at this time. You are a deeply disturbed individual, Elizabeth but I must be too, since I'm continuing the dialogue.

Doug Yowell
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:24:38 GMT

"I don't consider Wayne's message comparable to the Christ centered preaching of Des, the justification theology of Luther, or the exegesis of Cranfield. If you do, lap it up. It's just another evidence of how spiritually bankrupt Adventism has become." If Wayne's life message of "...one thing I know; that though I was blind, now I see" is evidence of how spiritually bankrupt Adventism has become then I will gladly lap up all the spiritual debt that comes with it. And so would millions of other dying sinners. I just wish Adventism had more Waynes in our ranks, for it is not the hearers of the law that are justified (by faith) but the doers of the law that will be justified (by faith).

George Evans
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:09:39 GMT

Elizabeth wrote, >It is my belief that after years of celibacy, old habits and thought patterns long suppressed will wither… I think it is irresponsible to make that statement. There is evidence for addiction research that indicates urges actually continue to strengthen in long term recovery. Of course this says nothing about miraculous rewiring by our Heavenly Neurosurgeon. Then again, maybe that's what Elizabeth was referring to.

glenhansen
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 22:57:36 GMT

George, I considered that statement by Elizabeth to be nonsense as well but it's an endless process pointing out every irresponsible comment she makes. Good example of what happens to repressed homosexuals is found in the RC abuse scandal. Sexuality can not be "suppressed." It's a basic instinct and will manifest itself one way or another.

tonnette77
Fri, 10 Oct 2014 23:52:15 GMT

All humans are born with tendencies to sin, and all humans have cultivated tendencies to sin. All these tendencies, whether they be to homosexual practices or to other types of sin, must be fought and conquered in Jesus' power, for a child of God. Any Christian who decides to let sinful tendencies continue producing sinful actions, unrestrained, will not make it into God's kingdom. BUT anyone who lets Jesus give the power to overcome WILL overcome, and will be in God's kingdom. All sinful tendencies will be erased when Jesus comes, and He will enable some to be removed before then - - any tendencies that remain must continue to be fought and conquered in His power until He comes.

Wayne Blakely
Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:34:08 GMT

precisely and eloquently stated tonnette. This is the pure and simple message to any Christian seeking God and His kingdom. Dying to self.

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:45:45 GMT

Glen, you are constantly aiming personal attacks at me rather than clearly stating which facts I have presented that you think are in error. Please attack my facts, not my person. I like your analogy. If you through enough spaghetti insults at me, some of them are bound to stick. Sometimes I wonder if you are on the Kinship payroll. There is an elephant in the room that is causing much disease and death all over the world. That elephant is getting larger and larger as homosexuals gain more acceptance thus what they do gains more acceptance. Even speaking against what gays do and its disease producing consequences becomes more and more politically incorrect EVEN IF IT IS TRUE AND FACTUAL! This is even influencing how the CDC discusses these issues. It is also muting the warnings about how to keep sexual health in high school and college level textbooks which I have reviewed. God wants an end-time clean and pure Remnant to represent His character for He will one day say to those who chose to commit unclean unnatural acts: "He who is filthy, let him be filthy still".

Wayne Blakely
Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:46:41 GMT

Doug when I witness people who protest how God has led in my life in a post conversion experience, it is always a bit of a red flag. It makes me wonder what cherished sin they may be struggling with. Notice I said "may" before I'm accused of being accusatory. LOL There are many who live to protest simply for the purpose of protest. And there are those who have not expereinced healing because they are holding on to bitterness. Let's remember that we didn't really even begin to try and reach out from a Biblical perspective until just recently. The reason being is that we have never addressed "feelings;" what to do with temptation. Many a gay person has prayed "God ... please make me straight." And then become angry when God doesn't answer that prayer. God's desire is not for someone to simply change sexual behavior. He desires for us to seek Him.... and all will be added unto us as God sees fit. Jesus did not make my wrong choices. So like Eve... there are consequences for my choices. I am scarred with sin. Jesus will walk with me, He will empower me and strengthe n me, but I am in a curing process, not suddenly cured. He asks me to live in agreement with Him. But He doesn't force me. He will never force me. This is part of my life with Him today. This is what He asks of any sin tainted person today. Trust Him, not self. This angers those who want instant deliverance. They don't see that they have a part in the fight against sin. So do those who are yelling "foul" at me. So be it. I know my Savior and choose to get to know Him more each day. I'm not sharing some "magic" ..as clearly that is not from God. I am sharing that all things are possible with Him when we live in agreement with Him and display it in our actions. But His plans are not always our plans. yet they will never disagree with His Word.

Doug Yowell
Sat, 11 Oct 2014 16:58:59 GMT

Just as long ago someone once noted, "the just shall live ( each day) by faith." Keep being faithful to the Word, brother. You have my support.

Wayne Blakely
Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:36:54 GMT

Thank you Doug. Just a brief statement that I would like to go on record regarding healing in Christ. God is fully capable of miracles. If God doesn't do it the way we want it, will you remain faithful to Him? "Healing isn't a substitue for the process of learning to grow and trust. Salvation is an event, but it's not a substitute for the need to grow up into God's purposes." - Sy Rogers God does not reveal things about us to shame us, but to assist us in the healing process. Don't give up. Jesus is thorough. He may ask us to do things and be persistent when we can't see the finished product. But He promises to complete the work He started in us if we will continue to trust Him and be faithful to Him.

George Evans
Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:05:05 GMT

tonnette, I agree with everything you said about tendencies. But when it comes to God's kingdom I prefer to turn it around the other way. You wrote, >Any Christian who decides to let sinful tendencies continue producing sinful actions, unrestrained, will not make it into God's kingdom. Any Christian in that state has not let the kingdom of God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, completely into their heart. Remember Jesus taught us to pray, "May Your kingdom come." He meant "May Your kingdom come," right here, right now, into me.

James Gale
Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:27:33 GMT

Are gay SDAs getting the clear message from the church (its pastors, theologians, psychologists) that the practice of homosexuality is definitely wrong and that God will empower them to resist and overcome their sinful desires and tendencies? It seems to me that if the SDA Church accepted the Three Angels' Messages and was proclaiming it the way God intends for us to, gay SDAs would have no question that God is fully able to help all of us overcome the sins in our lives, including homosexual sins, even if we are born "that way."

Wayne Blakely
Tue, 21 Oct 2014 13:20:19 GMT

Hello James Gale... First of all "Gay SDAs" or "Gay Christians," would be an oxymoron. How can you but the belieif or desire for same-sex relations before the word "Christ?" It clearly dethrones God. To answer your question... largely "No." Many are being ambiguous by not reaching out or responding due to the "worldview" and not wanting to upset their congregations because of the many parents, relatives and friends of gays. They are afraid to preach a "redemptive" sermon or to have us come and share our testimonies because someone might twist the "love" message into "hate speach" because it may prick the flesh rather then scratch their ear. But there are those here and there that God has sprinkled about who are bold in the gospel of Jesus. The Word alone says that freedom is possible. But it is hard to argue with a personal testimony, (Revelation 12:11) and that is what God has given us. He will see us through to the very end. You are ABSOLUTELY correct. We are all born with a fallen nature and we are all asked to be born again and live in agreement with Jesus Christ. God bless you! Keep proclaiming His "truth and love" message.

James Gale
Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:36:10 GMT

Hi Wayne Blakely, By "gay SDAs" I mean members of the SDA Church who practice homosexuality. I don't refer to people who practice it openly, but I'm sure you realize that there are members of the church, even some in leadership positions, who have homosexual relations. I also include members who, although they don't practice, are strongly tempted to. I think when we write about the subject, we have to assume that such members do exist in our church and that their needs have got to be addressed. SDAs must be at the forefront of Christians who believe and teach that God empowers homosexuals (and all other sinners) to resist and overcome their temptations, no matter what they are. But this won't happen as long people are led to believe that their sins are something they must learn to accept and live with. Yet, tragically, that is what I believe the common message is today among SDAs who are either active or experience temptations to act out their homosexual desires. That is the main reason I'm thrilled to see your article, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Thank you for writing and posting it.

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