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The blind leading the blind — ADvindicate

Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:07:48 GMT

Juliette Sasek
Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:07:48 GMT

Amen. Great truths, beautifully put.

jordan777
Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:59:01 GMT

Praise God for this insightful article!! I completely agree. Somehow Christians have become far too lenient when it comes to issues of sexual purity. Equality demands that the same leniency is applied to all such cases (this is my observation, not my standpoint). Hence the push for affirming/accepting the sin of homosexuality. It would help a great deal if 'straight' Christians would straighten their backs and stand for what is right when it comes to sexual purity for heterosexuals first as well as homosexuals. Only if you have surrendered sexual purity as a requirement or as attainable for yourself or others as heterosexually oriented people, will you be tempted to drop the standard for those who have different sexual temptations like for example homosexual desires. _(the irony being that this only holds for those sins and temptations that have gained societal acceptance. I have yet to find a minister/theologian affirming bestiality or pedophilia)_ Only those who comfort themselves with a false security when they are complacent in sin, will comfort others complacent in different yet similar sin with that same false security. Only those who do not know the saving power of the Gospel personally, cannot share the saving power of the Gospel with others. Maybe this is why the Bible warns us to turn away from those "having a form of Godliness, but denyig the power thereof" (2 Timothy 3:15), because they have "the power of God unto salvation to all who believe" and therefore have denied the Gospel itself (Romans 1:16).

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:45:03 GMT

Thank you Wayne for another call to integrity. Thank-you for mentioning EGW's clear statement: "Not one particle of *Sodomitish* impurity will escape the wrath of God at the execution of the judgment. Those who do not repent of and forsake all *uncleanness* will fall with the wicked." When EGW spoke of a "particle" of Sodomish impurity I think she is speaking of marital anal sex. See http://advindicate.com/articles/2153 She also mentions crimes can take place in the marriage bed. I believe "uncleanness" (anal sex) is one such crime. I believe it is never truly equally mutually consensual and puts a wife's health at risk. Thus it can never be an act of love. Sadly the SDA church is silent on this sin in our literature and books directed at preparation for marriage. If the position of the SDA church is that it has already spoken clearly in the many Position Statements on homosexuality, then the SDA Church still needs to create a new Position Statement on what is a "particle of Sodomish impurity" that can threaten one's salvation. Wives need firm ground to s tand on to reject degrading unhealthful sexual acts. Wayne, When you give seminars or do counseling, do you feel called to also warn against sodomy or "uncleanness" (anal sex) in the marital bed? I feel you have a unique and strong podium to speak against this sin. If a man who is fighting homosexual urges, and has made the commitment of marriage and family, if he engages his wife with "uncleanness", might he become more at risk of falling back into homosexuality? Is a man with a homosexual past more likely to ask this of his wife if he transitions to heterosexuality? Has your ex-gay colleague Pastor Woolsey ever broached this subject?

David Read
Thu, 25 Sep 2014 20:45:41 GMT

Another outstanding article, Wayne! Thanks so much for all you do. I hope many local churches, conference retreats, camp meetings, and SDA schools and colleges will arrange to have "Coming Out Ministries" come and present a weekend seminar. This is a message of overcoming that needs to be heard in our denomination. And it isn't just for those struggling with same-sex attraction, but for everyone, because certainly we all struggle with unconsecrated desires that need to be overcome.

DaisyJ
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 00:10:24 GMT

good article. Reminds me of Eric Walsh. Aaron Gould Sheinin in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution writes, "A man (Eric Walsh) who claims that the state Public Health Department rescinded a job offer once it learned of his religious beliefs – in recorded sermons online he said homosexuality is a sin and evolution is a “religion created by Satan” – filed a complaint Tuesday with the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in Atlanta".

collins
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 04:14:04 GMT

Amen. Many solemn and true points I need to remember.

TonyR
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:13:54 GMT

It is without question that homosexuality was one of the reasons why Sodom was destroyed. But I wonder, in Sister Whites quote when she said "Sodomitish" was she only referring to homosexuality, or all the sins of Sodom? I would suggest, I could be wrong of course, that it refers to all of their sins. Ezekiel tells us: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had *pride*, *excess* *of* *food*, and *prosperous* *ease*, but did not aid the *poor* and *needy*. They were *haughty* and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it." (Ezekiel 16:49,50) God here is telling Israel that you've become like this too. What I'm trying to say is, we need to careful, because many who profess to be Christians today fall into those exact categories in Ezekiel 16. But, yes, we need to stand up against this push for same sex union into the church, and support our leaders. Too many will leave our leaders to defend this on their own, and then wonder why this was allowed to happen. I've noticed many of the other Protestant Churches have had to deal with this sooner than us. I believe God has allowed this to occur so as we can see what happens when such things are permitted, and how we can avoid them. Thank you for your article Wayne.

earlysda
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:26:09 GMT

There is a much worse sin than sexual abominations that our SDA church not only permits, but actually encourages - murdering the preborn. "We had the “Three Angels Message” and the prophecies of the multi-headed beasts. We told of the clay and iron feet and the prophetic events rapidly approaching." These sentences ring loudly in my ears, as I see lots of time and energy spent on women's ordination studies, creation conferences, even sexuality conferences, and yet we, as a church, murder (or provide for murder) every single day. It is solemn blasphemy.

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 15:35:52 GMT

> @tonyr > "They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.” (Ezekiel 16:49,50)" Tony, You made *bold* type for all the sins except that they *did an ABOMINATION before me. * Why? God has no problem with spelling out specific sins for which He is giving specific punishment ie: Saul not obeying Samuel's instructions, Lot's wife for looking back to Sodom, Moses for striking the rock rather than speaking to it etc. But when a sin is an unspeakable sin because its mention would put images in the mind that God does not want us to contemplate, God or His penman speak in euphemisms & vague generalities. In the reasons given for the flood, we also have some vague generalities. That should clue us that an unspeakable sin is present. If the story of Sodom only contained vague nonspecific general sins, what lesson would it teach? NOTHING! But God included the specific intentions of the men surrounding Lot's home. Abomination s are usually specific deeds not mental attitudes like pride, haughty, ease & selfishness. Lev 18:22 describes the acts attempted in Sodom as an *abomination*, a capstone of rebellion.

Jeremy Vandieman
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 16:52:58 GMT

this is a timely article...the direction our schools seem to be taking with homosexuality is good in the sense that it allows us to discuss it...but along with being able to discuss it, we must be very clear that gay behavior is satan's counterfeit from beginning to end...being born with a gay orientation doesn't lessen the bible's condemnation against this sin...homosexuality can be overcome, just like every other sin...

George Evans
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:16:35 GMT

earlysda wrote, >There is a much worse sin than sexual abominations that our SDA church not only permits, but actually encourages – murdering the preborn. There is no rational way a first trimester abortion can be defined as murder.

George Evans
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:16:53 GMT

Elizabeth, tony's point is well taken. I don't think you advance the cause any by trying to make a distinction between homosexuality and pride. But can be thought of as orientations and both may lead equally effectively to sin. We aren't going to move very well against homosexuality until we move with equal intensity against gluttony, pride, haughtiness, etc.

Elizabeth Iskander, M.D.
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:34:29 GMT

George, You are going in the "Just Another Sin" direction which takes us to normalizing homosexuality.

gladventist
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 23:03:55 GMT

Elizabeth, You are far too obsessed with married anal sex. You repeat yourself more often than the anti-abortionist who makes every topic on here into an abortion discussion.

earlysda
Fri, 26 Sep 2014 23:36:49 GMT

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly. I don't see the word "trimester" anywhere in there..... Elizabeth - You are doing a brave work of showing some of the roots of the current public acceptance of what God calls an "abomination". If married men had never normalized sodomy, it is very doubtful homosexuals would be so vocal about forcing its normalization on everyone. But if murdering the most helpless of society is going to be swept under the rug in the Adventist church, what's the point in calling for repentance in any other areas?

TonyR
Sat, 27 Sep 2014 05:20:44 GMT

Elizabeth, My main point was, is for us to be careful not to see Sodom as only a place of homosexuality. I was trying to bring a little humility and balance into the discussion.

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