Great info here, David. Will check these out. Question for you, how do you avoid excess P in your system?
Sorry to be slow responding to this question. We got hit pretty hard by Hurricane Dorian last weekend, and only got power and Internet back a couple of days ago. To avoid building our soil P any further (it already tests in the high to excessive range) we have stopped buying in off-farm compost, and are using only farm-generated feedstocks to make on-farm compost. These feedstocks are manure from our cattle and poultry, hay made on-farm (used as bedding for the stock in winter), and all the waste products of the vegetable operation. The idea is to cycle the nutrients we already have, with small additions in the form of purchased poultry feed and some purchased hay to make up for the nutrients leaving the farm through produce sales. The main nutrient we need to top up each year is nitrogen, which we're trying to get as much as possible from leguminous cover crops. These will cycle existing mineral nutrients like P, K, and Ca, which are already at adequate to high levels, and pull N in from the air. In cases where the legumes haven't fixed enough N, due to poor stands, win ter kill, etc., we're using alfalfa pellets as a source of N that doesn't carry an excessive load of P as well. Why do we care about avoiding excessively high nutrient levels? The potential for water pollution from agricultural sources is highly site-specific. We are farming moderately steep 3 to 6% slopes, with a well drained, highly erodible sandy loam soil and a lake at the bottom of the hill. We get lots of heavy rainfall events and lots of snow in the winter, which can melt fast in the spring with the ground still frozen, generating a lot of surface flow into the lake. Pretty much a textbook case of high hydrological connectivity between farm fields and a water body. Other farms will have less, or even more, of such connectivity, but I think all environmentally responsible farmers should be aware of how much nutrients they're applying to their land in relation to the needs of their crops, and to be aware of where excessive nutrients may end up. Also, see the article about phosphorus and soil biology recommended above... a lot of the soil biology we're interested in, like mycorrhizal fungi and N-fixing bacteria, function better at lower rather than higher nutrient levels. I've attached a photo of some of our vegetable beds, 4' wide with 2' permanent sod paths between, laid out across the slope and slightly terraced as an erosion-fighting measure, and cover cropped for the off-season with oats and winter peas. [IMG_5772](//muut.com/u/notillgrowers/s3/:notillgrowers:wfwK:img_5772.jpg.jpg)
Jesse, you need to get this fella on the pod!
My land unfortunately tests low. Have been using Tennessee Brown Phosphate.
My understanding was that aged compost carries very little water soluble, non complexed P. Which would mean for example a deep compost mulch system wouldn't create active P problems just add to a well fixed P bank of the soil. Just trying to see if I got this right...
I need to do a new soil test to see where I'm at. Two years ago I started with raw land. Very sandy soil. Before adding anything (primarily mushroom compost), the soil test recommendation I got back was: 1.4 lbs N/1000sqft 3.1 lbs P205/1000sqft 3.6 lbs K20/1000sqft 0 lbs CA .25 lbs Mg .5 lbs S
Responding first to huerta_tarruco, there's a guy named Andrew Sharpley who has pretty much made agricultural phosphorus and its effects on the environment his life's work. Back in 2000 he published a study in which he looked at the solubility and forms (organic vs. inorganic) of phosphorus in various manures and composts. Although the P in composts was generally less water soluble than that in raw manures, even in composts 15 -20% of the total inorganic P, and 1% of the total organic P, was soluble in water. These data come from Table 4 in the study, which you can download for free here: https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/pubag/downloadPDF.xhtml?id=19027&content=PDF This whole topic of potential water pollution as the result of runoff or leaching from heavy compost applications has been discussed extensively (and somewhat contentiously!) on this forum. So here's a suggestion for you, Jesse: ask Andrew Sharpley to be a guest on the podcast to give his take on it all. He is, literally, one of the best in the world on this topic, and has been at it for a long time - I have follow ed his work going back into the 1980s. He's currently teaching at the University of Arkansas, and his contact info is readily available online. He did a podcast for the Soil Science Society of America last month as part of the Phosphorus 350 celebration, so he might very well do one for us. I can pretty much guarantee that if you describe the deep compost system to him you'll get his attention!
Responding to the post from staleyfarms, I'm curious to know: 1. How much compost have you put down since the soil test? 2. Was it all mushroom compost? 3. Do you have an analysis of the compost? 4. Was the compost incorporated at all, or surface applied only? If you can get a new soil test and are willing to share the results here, it would be really interesting to see how the new results relate to what you've done in the past 2 years.
David, I am very much a beginner and small scale but it might be a good test case. Again, I started with raw sandy soil with bahia I had to get out. The area I am working is 90' x 90' but within that I'm probably only growing on a 1/8 of an acre. The beds are 50' and there are currently 15 beds that have been prepped. This has been over a 2 year period with much more land prep than actual growing. Like most, any techniques or methods have been gleaned from JM, Curtis Stone, Charles Dowding or other youtube content. I tend to lean towards how Mr. Dowding does things. I am no till but I did till initially. 1. On a 50' bed I would say I was putting something like 3 to 4 inches of mushroom compost. It felt like each bed took almost a yard. Maybe like 5 to 6 wheel barrels full. It felt like a lot!. At first I would till that in but I realized it was just still too sandy. So my process changed to just laying the compost on and not tilling it. I cover it with hay and let it sit for the most part. I grew a little last spring. Summer was brutal here so again a lot of them just sat with hay on them. I will grow more this fall than I have any other time. So far, I am not seeing any probs, but again I'm pretty new to this so the jury may still be out. 2. It was all mushroom compost initially. I have a few rows that I have amended with homemade compost which I hope to do more of (as I make more). 3. This is where I get the compost from and it has some analysis on the page and talks a bit how it's made. https://www.kitchenpride.com/compost-sales 4. Again, I would say about half the rows I incorporated and about half the rows I stopped tilling it and just layed it on top. I will send off a soil test this week to A&M. I am curious as well and will be happy to share the results. Thanks for the interest.